Have you learned so much about the meat and dairy industries and/or the benefits of a plant-based diet but the one thing holding you back from embracing the "vegan" title is the fear of change? The anxiety of challenging the status quo? Do you have worries like-- what about the holidays? And what do I tell my family? And why are they reacting like this? And why are people so defensive? And why don't they understand? And how do I deal with travel? ...you're not alone!
Colleen Patrick-Goudreau is a recognized expert and thought leader on the culinary, social, ethical, and practical aspects of living vegan; she is an award-winning author of 7 books, and an acclaimed speaker with over 16 years of podcasting. Colleen joins Katie Kurpanek, Eco-Living Coach and Podcast Host, to break down the social barriers and fears that often keep us from living in full alignment with the compassion we have at our core. These social aspects are usually the determining factors as to whether or not someone becomes vegan / stays vegan, so it feels right to be wrapping up our series on veganism with this interview.
If you want to learn how to find your voice and become empowered enough to use it with confidence, even beyond the "vegan" conversation -- this episode is for you!
Contact Info for Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
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You're listening to all things sustainable, where we unpack topics related to sustainable living, as well as how to apply specific actions to your own life. I'm your eco living coach and podcast host, Katie Kurpanek. Let's jump in. Hey, I have a quick question for you. How would you like to save money with unique discounts to nearly 20 (and growing) eco friendly shops and services, all for less than the price of one coffee per month, like less than $5 a month. One of the perks to becoming a patron of this show is having access to that growing bundle of coupons exclusively for my patrons and my coaching clients. And the updated versions of those discount codes are sent out every three months so that you can continue saving while you shop. Not only do you get these discounts as a special thank you for supporting the show. But you also have the privilege of joining these interviews live via zoom with a chance to have your own q&a with the guest speaker at the end if you want to. And if you can't make it, you still get access to the full unedited conversations with video because I upload the recordings of these interviews for patrons right afterward. So if this show has benefited your life in some way, and you want to support the work that I'm doing, or you're simply intrigued by all of those perks, and you want to enjoy those amazing discounts, check out patreon.com/all Things sustainable. It's linked in the show notes and you can sign up for as low as $3 a month. Okay, thank you so much for being here. And thank you to the amazing patrons who are currently supporting this podcast. This work would literally not be possible without you. Let's get back to our show. My friends, I can't even believe it. But here we are. In the final interview for season three of the All Things sustainable podcast, we have been exploring all things vegan in this series. And today's episode is the last interview that I have for you. Next week will be my final wrap up episode for this series where it's just me sharing my own thoughts and learning with you all and my story when it comes to my vegan journey. As I always say if you have missed any of the previous episodes, you will definitely want to go back and give them a listen. But I know I'm biased. But really in this series. If you've missed any episode, you are not going to want to miss one. All of them are just fantastic. And each one explores a completely unique side to the vegan conversation. So we talk about everything from physical health and nutritional impacts of our diet on our bodies. And specifically when it comes to plant based living, what are the benefits? What are the risks? What are the things that we should or should not do? Like there's so much in that episode. Beyond that we have episodes that talk about connecting human rights and animal rights together, learning the shocking statistics of oppression and injustice for both humans and animals within the meat and dairy industries. We talk about the connection between our diet, and then the impact on climate change and the planet and what we can do about it. We also talk about the different vegan experiences across cultures and families and traditions. We talk about the vast disparities within our food distribution system, especially within the United States. We talk about food justice, and how if that is not part of the vegan conversation, then it is crucially lacking. We also talk about from more of a spiritual perspective and also a very science and mathematics based perspective. We talked about reconnecting with nature and our core dharma as well as the power that we hold to reverse climate change. And finally, here we are today with one of my personal favorite icons in the vegan world, Colleen Patrick Goudreau. Colleen was among the very first people to inspire me in my vegan journey and to point me towards resources or to even be the resource. Her podcast currently has over 16 years of episodes. And I dove into those episodes. When I first became vegan, I learned so much and I still do today. She is also an award winning author of seven books. She is a speaker, cultural commentator, a podcaster as mentioned before, and she is a recognized expert and thought leader on the culinary social, ethical and practical aspects of living compassionately and healthfully. So Colleen naturally was the person that I thought of when I thought in order to wrap up this series, kind of the Capstone here I think needs to be the social dilemma that many of us face when looking at a vegan or a plant based diet. Maybe after everything that you may have learned through this podcast. The one thing that might be holding you back still from becoming vegan, is just the social norms, the peer pressure, the awkward social settings that you're dreading. You know, if you were to change your entire life with what you eat and don't eat, what's that going to look like? What's that going to feel like? What is it going to do to your families and your relationships, maybe you're afraid of being seen as a picky eater. So many of us were brought up with well intentioned disciplines that taught us to, you know, eat everything on your plate. And to not refuse the food that's given to you. You don't want to be seen as rude you don't want to see be seen as a picky eater. And while all of that was well intentioned, those experiences in childhood have now morphed into adulthood where adults don't know how to voice their opinions, especially when it comes to food. And they're really sure how to make choices with a sort of autonomy. There's just there's a lot there, there's a lot in how this can play out. And Colleen Patrick Goudreau really has become an expert in helping people through that, that fear and that peer pressure, she has also traveled all over the world. And so she has lots of experience being vegan and eating this way while traveling. So she talks about whether or not she's ever had to starve. She's talked about the challenges of that, or the ease of that she has so many incredible stories to share. So that's about the first three fourths of our conversation and then the last fourth of the conversation or so, is completely unrelated. It's just a curveball question that I ended up throwing at her and I decided to keep in this episode because she has such a passionate answer. And that has to do with thoughts on conservation. So being able to conserve our nature, while being vegan. How are those things connected? You know, how do we do this without without having to kill different animals or species and so on. Colleen is a phenomenal speaker, she is a huge inspiration. I'm so thankful that she took time out of her day to be on this podcast with us all and I'm excited for you to hear this conversation. Be sure to listen to the end, there is so much good stuff there. And then in the episode description, there are a bunch of resources linked for you as well. So without further ado, let's dive into our final interview of season three with Colleen Patrick Goudreau. Colleen, I am stoked to have you on the podcast today I have already shared a brief introduction with my listeners. And I've talked to you just a little bit over email. But you have been personally one of like the biggest influencers in my own vegan journey since the beginning. And that was like five plus years ago. And so I've just been so excited to be able to have you on the podcast. And it's such a privilege. So thank you for taking your time today.Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here. I can't wait to talk to you.Katie Kurpanek:
Thank you. I'm excited too. We, in this season three of the All Things sustainable podcasts, we've been going through a whole variety of angles, looking into veganism, and we talked about, you know, nutrition and health. And we've talked about the climate impacts, we talked about social justice, animal rights, all the different things. And I'm very excited to have your episode be kind of like the capstone on this big project. Because I think that one thing that consistently comes up for me, sometimes I'm getting better at it, but definitely people within my circle who feel like this is the one thing holding them back from being vegan is like the the social norms and like peer pressure, and just kind of the way that we view our relationship with food. And feeling awkward in social settings, especially while traveling. So I know that that is something that is very close to your heart. And I mean, you have a podcast of your own, you have books, you have cookbooks, you have cooking classes, you have so many things and you travel all the time. So all that to say, I feel like you are an expert to talk to you about this, and also coming from a place of respect and compassion. You know, shame is just never like a motivating healthy factors. So that's kind of what we're diving into today. But I would love if you could start by just telling us a bit about yourself, and you know, who are some of the beloved people in your life?Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Such a lovely question. So thank you. And thank you for covering all those topics. I mean, this really does touch every single topic. It's it's so expansive, and it's so deep. And it's so exciting to be able to talk about so many aspects of it. So and thank you for bringing up the social aspects. I can't wait to dig into that because I think that is really the crux, I think that is the thing that determines whether someone becomes vegan stays vegan since being vegan. I think that's it. And I don't think it's talked about enough because I think there's a perception that if you cared enough, that wouldn't bother you. And so you clearly don't care enough and that's not okay. That's not an answer. That's just lazy. So I can't wait to dig into that. And then I'll tell my story very briefly, and the only reason I think it's important to tell our stories is, Well, I think there's two reasons that it's important to tell our stories. One is, it reminds us that we once didn't know, it reminds us that we once didn't make the connection, it reminds us that we once ate animals and their, their, you know, secretions. And we it just reminds us that we have are on this journey as well. And I think it's also important to tell our story, because I think it's in our stories that other people identify with us, because I don't think our stories are really very different from one another. And I've heard 1000s of stories over the decades, I've been doing this work, and there's nothing where I've gone Oh, that's unique. No one's ever said that before. Like, it's always something we can all identify with. And so my story is, I think universal. I grew up eating animal products, and meat and dairy and eggs and everything. My father owned ice cream stores, we had a separate freezer, just for ice cream. We ate all manner of animals, animals, the walk down animals, flew animals and swam all of it and I was an animal lover. And I was someone who had never hurt anyone ever. Knowingly, willingly directly. And, and yet I was eating animals because I didn't know I was hurting animals. And my parents didn't do this, because they were you know, sadistic and wanted to fool me into creating harm. They were just passing on what they knew. And at the same time, they were feeding me animals, they were encouraging my compassion, they knew I was someone who loved animals. And I and I, this has to be said to my sister grew up in the same family, obviously, and she wasn't an animal lover. But I don't think you have to be an animal lover to like, not want to hurt them. So even if someone's listening and going, Yeah, I don't really have that connection with animals. So that doesn't, that doesn't resonate. You don't have to love them or want to be with them to not want to commit violence against them. That goes for anybody who we may not have a connection with, we still don't want to, you know, commit violence against them. But I was that kid who loved animals and wanted to be around them, and would intervene and would would really feel the pain. If I saw them suffer. I still do. And so my parents encouraged that and, and yet, I was eating animals. And so I didn't make the connection myself. Until I was much older. You know, when I went to my parents with my questions about that, there were the typical responses about what we tell ourselves to make us okay about it, and what we tell our children to make them okay with it, which is they were here for us, they don't feel the same pain, we wouldn't be able to survive without them, they sacrifice their lives for so that we can survive, you know, just kind of all of the things that we have to tell ourselves, because if we really told ourselves the truth, which is, we really like them, we like to eat them, we don't need them, but they taste good. So whatever. Like that's just not a satisfying answer, right? Because it makes us sound pretty cold hearted. And so we have to tell ourselves, these, these excuses these justifications, in order to stay what I would say willfully blind to the reality. So when I was about 19, or 20, I read Diet for a New America, which was one of the first books that came out about the effects of consuming animal products and raising animals, the effects on our health, the effects on the animals and the effects on the environment. And it was John Robbins, who wrote that book. And it was just the first book that just opened my eyes. And then it started me on a journey to continue to learn more, but there was a real time span between reading that book stopping eating land animals, but I continued to eat dairy and eggs, and I continued to eat aquatic animals off and on. And then the time when I read a book called slaughterhouse, which was the book that actually completely opened my eyes. And that was probably about a six year difference. So it wasn't like I had, you know, just this awakening, and that was it. I still missed the boat on the dairy and eggs. And then when I got it, I got it. And so, so that was my journey. And, and, and I've heard so many similar stories, you know, that are similar to mine. And the bottom line is, I wanted to just guide people through that process, because I know so many people also didn't know when they didn't know, they wanted to make a difference, but they struggled with the how to make a difference. And so that's how I started doing my work pretty much right as I once I became vegan. I mean, I was an animal advocate prior to being vegan when I was vegetarian and pescatarian. I was I was an animal advocate, but my compassion was still pretty, pretty, pretty, you know, compartmentalized, and so but once I became vegan, there really is the shift that takes place. It really is kind of this very different experience than than even when you're vegetarian. And so I started raising awareness and then guiding people because everybody asked What about protein and what about cooking? What about the holidays and what about and the big questions they were about food they were about cooking and I started teaching cooking classes. That's how I started on the food aspect. It was to give people what they needed so that they could reflect their values in their behavior. But, and so many people asked about the social aspects, and what about the holidays? And what do I tell my family? And why are they reacting like this? And why are people so defensive? And why don't they understand? And how do I deal with travel, like, all of these things that are such a huge part of this journey. And so that's why I cover the social aspects, as well, as we said in the beginning, it touches the food, the cooking, the social aspects, the family, the cultural aspects, all of it. And so there's a lotKatie Kurpanek:
Oh, there is there's so much more that you know, that we cannot just cover in this one simple podcast episode, which is why I'm excited to you know, have this become an entire series so we can really take our time. But I think that I mean, food is such an intimate thing. It brings people together across cultures across, you know, language barriers, it connects people very deeply. And so I think that that, at least in my experience, is why we have so many very deeply rooted defenses in what we eat. Let's definitely dive into that, like the feelings and the experiences within social settings as a vegan. I think that there's a lot of guilt or even fear, I'm not sure which one is the right word of being seen as a picky eater. And I know that's a conversation between my partner and I, he and I talk all the time about how we were raised, we just we eat what is given to us, especially when you're traveling or in your somebody else's, in someone else's home, you don't want to be seen as like refusing what they're offering you. So I think that that has very deep roots. So that takes a lot to overcome. And then also just like the general fear of feeling awkward in a social setting, like what if we can't eat anything at a meal? What if we're traveling, and we have no idea where to find vegan food? So let's dive into that for a little bit. Like how have you handled being the only one maybe sometimes eating differently in a meal?Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Okay, God, there's so much to say, there's so much to say, because we have to go back to our family roots when we talk about this. And we have to go back to why our family especially are the ones who tend to have the most visceral reaction when we change the way we eat. Because they're the ones who instilled in us how we eat. They're the ones who fed us. They're the ones who nurtured us with food nourished us with food, I'll even say, look, especially our mothers, literally from their own bodies feeding us and incorporating the the cultural aspects, the history that how the ancestors ate, I mean, there's so much happening in just the way we're raised in the way we're fed by our families. And so number one, being aware of that is so important, because then we can understand why they have such a reaction when they do. So some of this is coming from, okay, they need to do some work. That's not my work, my work isn't their work, all I need to do is understand, or I shouldn't say all I need to do, what I need to do is understand where they're coming from understand how what I'm doing is impacting them, and understand how the change that I'm making could be done in a way that might be able to get us on the other side of it more quickly, because we play a role in however, in this dynamic, right. So first of all, understanding that and understanding that it is very possible that when we say we're not eating that way anymore, I'm not eating that way anymore. I'm not eating that food anymore. That one of the reasons they take it so personally, and I think this is subconscious, I don't think they're even aware of this, or could find the words to say this, that we're rejecting them, that we're rejecting what they taught us. They were rejecting what they gave us, we're rejecting their, their parents, parents and parent, like we're rejecting our culture, we're rejecting the really again, this nourishment, this nurturing this love that has come with the food that they've given us, that we're rejecting them. And that feels very personal. And to them, it could feel really bad. And so just again, knowing that I think is really important. So what are ways that we can mitigate that? I think just even understanding it Hey, Mom, I know this is going to be really surprising because because you know, I've loved your food all these years, and I still do I love you. I love the love that you've put into the food that doesn't that hasn't changed. But and Mom, this has nothing to do with you. I've learned some things about what I was eating and the choices I was making, that don't really reflect the values I have, the values you instilled in me, the values of compassion, the values of kindness, the values of wellness, I care about those things, and you really helped me become this person. And because of that, I'm making some changes. It has nothing to do with you. I know it's going to be hard and it might be different It will be different, but I can help you, you know, as we kind of as I on this journey myself, and we can do it together, right. So I know that sounds really Oh, that's, that sounds like really grown up and really constructive. That's not always easy to do, because emotions play a part. But as a foundation, or just at least as an aspiration for how we can handle this, at least always trying to kind of get to that place of understanding and communication, I think, can be really helpful. The other part of it is us being really confident in the decisions we're making and understanding where we end and someone else begins. Because if we are internalizing how they're reacting to us, then that's also going to have us react in a very different way, which is, I know, I don't know, I'm not trying to be a pain and I'm not being picky, and it's not, no, okay, fine. It's fine. Yeah, I'll eat it. Right, if we are meek and self effacing, that's also problematic, because then we're not also teaching people how to respond to us and to treat us. So we need to be very confident and very proud of the the changes, we're making the lessons, we're learning the evolution, that we're on the prod the journey that we're on. That's not to say that we won't stumble, or you know, or have questions or be uncertain about things, but we have to be confident in who we are and the choices that we're making. And I think that's one of the reasons we have difficulty when we're traveling, when we're talking to strangers, when we're talking to family, when we're talking to a server in a restaurant, is if we're perceiving ourselves to be a pain in the butt, or being picky. You know, even that word I mean, that is already putting a judgement on the choice we're making. If we're perceiving ourselves that way. That's how we're going to show up. And that's how people are going to respond to us. And I'm sorry, I don't want to be a pain like do you have? Do you have any, you don't have to worry about me, I'll just take some rice, the server will probably be like, Oh, God, yeah, alright, fine. I mean, I'll just whatever. And then the people around us go, Well, that doesn't look really fun. And I don't want to be that person. But if we show up, as Hi, I'm vegan, I know you have some wonderful things on the menu that we can that we can even tweak for me. So don't go into too much trouble. But is there? Can you give me some suggestions about your favorite things that wouldn't have animal products, then you're empowering yourself? You're speaking from a place of empowerment. And everyone around you're modeling that right? And so around? Everyone around you goes, oh, oh, that's what it looks like, oh, and then you get your food? And of course, everybody goes, I want what you have? Because it's different than what than what was on the menu. And wow, I didn't know you could do that. Did you? So so I know I'm saying a lot here. And if it's not obvious, I think the thread in all of this is communication is how we communicate, both before we speak. And how we how we talk to ourselves about this. So so much of this is, is communication and orientation.Katie Kurpanek:
I think it is and I love what you just said about like, it starts with talking to ourselves. And I think that that is also probably a big barrier to even if it's the last barrier to somebody stepping into veganism, like wanting to not eat animal products anymore. If if they're struggling with the way that they view themselves, or feeling a lack of identity or strength in that identity, and maybe feeling a lack of a voice because of it. That is all also very deeply rooted. And it's not just like a simple fix. It's not like you can just like oh, let's switch that, you know, light on and now it's going to work. And so I think that at least for me, that was one of the beautiful things about this journey is that I was going into this diet because of course being vegan is like an entire way of life and the way that you view the world. But the diet aspect I was going into because of my own health. And so it was all physical reasons. What I did not expect was that I was going to find so much of myself in this journey, I was going to find ways to have a voice and feel confidence that I hadn't really even given myself a chance to do before. But it's not easy. So I think that that's that's probably a huge piece that might be holding people back. What would you suggest then be like some practical I don't want to call them tips because that seems too simple, but like some practical ways that people can start diving into this for themselves and and growing in that journey.Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
I just love it so much because it is this is a journey and it's a journey even once you become vegan. So we're all on a journey and there's just so much more to learn and what a gift that is what an opportunity if it weren't there. I guess it would hopefully be something else. But this particular journey because we keep saying it's it touches so many aspects, what an opportunity. So again, if we can kind of look at it as that as opposed to a burden, and as opposed to, I'm now a social outcast, and I'm not part of the status quo. And I'm gonna be looked at, as you know, as someone who's judging, like, oh, that's all the negative stuff we we put onto it. But it is such an opportunity and exactly what you're saying. I mean, it's why I do this work. It's why it's why I wrote the joyful vegan. So this book specifically is about what happens once you become awake and confront all of these, these challenges, or these, the status quo. It's the social aspects, it's the communication aspects, it's our own awareness that we have been willfully blind. It's our own awareness of how this touches so many other issues and how we do grow from this. And it's our awareness that, that we are all kind of conditioned to keep each other really ignorant and status quo, because as one, you know, boat rises, the others are forced to rise. And that makes people uncomfortable, because most people avoid change. And we all want to kind of keep it down. And now don't wait, don't want, right. And that's what we're all fearful of. And so the idea that we pop up, and then, and then see it negatively, or we take on other people's negativity, and their negative, you know, perception of this, of this way of living and thinking, it's so heartbreaking because that's, again, why I wrote the book, why do people avoid becoming vegan? And we just said some of it because we don't want to pop up and look different than everybody else, because we're such social creatures. Why do people struggle once they are vegan against status quo and social aspects and cultural aspects? And why do people go back to eating meat, dairy and eggs, because because they haven't worked it out, while they're vegan to understand that this is an opportunity and a gift. But also to understand the potential for growth in this is so great, but that can also be scary, change can be scary, even if it's positive. So is it is it is such an opportunity, and it's such an exciting journey, you use the word that I talked about in the joyful vegan in one of the chapters on coming out. And that is about identity. Because one of the one of the challenges is that vegan, the vegan identity is perceived as being separate from our other identities. Right? And so we talked a little bit about family identity, cultural identity, it could be gender identity, it could you know, that, you know, meat is, you know, meat is for men, you know, meat makes the man, the the women are the ones who are supposed to feed the meat to the man. So this idea that I'm not taking care of my, my son, my husband, even my daughter wouldn't, right, but that I'm not taking care of my family by not giving them meat and animal products, the things that they need the things that they love, right, huge, the men saying, Well, no, I can't not eat meat, because we have these associations between masculinity and meat. So that's a huge one. It could be again, religious identity, cultural, as we said, and so if we perceive vegan as a separate identity from these things, if we do and then we're aware that other people in our lives do, then never the twain shall meet. But what I try to convey is recognizing that it's not a separate identity, I know that there is an element of us wanting to embrace it, because it becomes so important to us. What I try to do is saying, This isn't separate, like, I even talk about the fact that I don't call you know, I didn't become vegan, as much as I removed the blocks to the compassion that was already inside of me, my identity is not being vegan, my identity is being compassionate, right? That's my identity. And so if we can go underneath what it means to be vegan, which is about embracing wellness, and compassion and kindness, then we go well, that's not at odds with the other things I care about in my life as a mother, as a sister, as a brother, as a father, as a, as a Jew, as a Catholic, as a Muslim, whatever it is, right? As an Italian as an, you know, as as, as you know, someone who's Polish, someone who's Irish, someone who's Mexican, it's not at odds, it's actually even more in keeping with those things. Because that's, that's the foundation of all of those things, the compassion that the values so I think one thing we can do better as vegans and vegan advocates is to stop talking about veganism as a separate identity and and, and, and help frame it as it being part and parcel of all these other identities that we care about.Katie Kurpanek:
Absolutely. I'm so glad you say that because even I mean this this is literally going to be the final episode of the series when it's all put out there. And I have had the chance to talk with so many wonderful people now. And that has always been conveyed as the message. And yet I still catch myself finding, like my language usage is it's separating veganism. If we are all and I believe this, if we're all genuinely good and compassionate, and we don't want to cause any unnecessary harm or exploitation of animals, or you know, human animals like living creatures, then that really is the definition of what it means to be vegan. And so I think a lot of people would actually agree that, okay, by that definition, then we're all probably vegan, like, we all, we all usually do not want to cause unnecessary harm to another living being. So yes, this, I think there's so much self growth and work that needs to be done. I'm still working through that. And I know it's going to take a lot of time. But if we do that work, then we will be able to have better conversations with others, we will be able to have that confidence when we show up to a dinner table, because we'll understand that this is just what I eat is just a part of who I am as a compassionate person. So thank you for all of that. You travel the world fairly frequently. And I'm curious, you know, with people who might be listening in and they think, okay, I could get on board with that with these, like, you know, the way that I view my identity and all of that. But what about the actual fear of like, well, what if I don't have anything to eat? Like, that's a totally separate topic. So with your experience traveling all, all over the world? Do you ever worry, have you ever worried that like you won't be able to eat or, you know, you would be seen as like, ungrateful to your hosts? If you're staying with people? You know, let's let's dive into that for a little bit.Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Sure. Yeah, no abs- Absolutely. There's so much to say about about that. So um, so, again, it comes from the mindset, it comes from the mindset. And whether it's just going to someone's house, you know, not to travel to do that, right? Or it's traveling to another country, what have you, or, you know, it's asking for what you want, the restaurants will ask them for what you wanted to hotel, all of it is just again, being confident to ask for what we want. It also means giving people the benefit of the doubt that they're going to want to please us, right? So this fear, fear is just such a barrier to connection. I mean, it really does keep us separate from, again, our own selves, as well as with other people. I think that fear and anticipation which is usually wrong. And I think we underestimate the power we have, as social beings, the power we have both both in terms of how people will respond to us, but also that they're looking to us to model how they could potentially be we inspire each other all the time without even knowing it without even realizing it, which is why I just the whole idea that there's influencers and they're celebrities, and they're supposed to have more weight than me as a next door neighbor, no, right? No, we have more weight, and more power and more influence over the people who are close to us than any celebrity has on social media, I don't care how exciting it is that Joe Schmo became vegan, and they have, you know, 60 million followers, that they're using their audience, just way we have our audience and one is not more powerful than the other. In the end, we are going to make decisions that we're going to be inspired by people who are in our lives, not because some stranger who's on you know, social media, or the television or the movie screen, made a decision, they might be the spark, and they might have planted a seed or they may have planted many, that's great. That's the way life works. But in the end, it's going to be how I feel with the person who I spend time with and how I'm making them feel. So it is about orientation. And it is about how we show up. And so I show up with the assumption that what I'm asking for is very reasonable, and that the person who I'm asking it to is the person who can can deliver it. And also who cares? Cares might be, you know, a friend or family member or a neighbor, but cares could also be a business transaction because they want my business. So the idea that I'm going to show up in a restaurant or hotel and I'm going to be embarrassed about asking for what I want when I'm paying them makes absolutely no sense to me. So I've never had the notion that I can ask for what I want. Now, I know some of this comes from personality, right? I know that I have obviously a personality where I am not shy, and I don't you know I don't I show up again with that, you know, assumption that they're gonna want to deliver what I'm asking. But also, I'm okay asking, but it doesn't mean I'm not awesome. Like, I'm very polite, like, I don't just show up, you know, demanding. But one of the things I'm most proud of in my work is because this has been a topic for 23 years that I've been doing this is the topic of communication. I am very proud of the fact that there have been so many people who've reached out to me who self identified as being introverted or shy, and found their voice through my giving them permission to just ask for what you want. So I'm giving you permission, whoever's listening, and you need to give yourself permission. So that's where it starts, again, the practical aspect, the practical aspects are, what is it you're asking for now, if I'm going to ask for, you know, a gourmet meal at a fast food restaurant, that's not reasonable, I'm not gonna get it. But if I'm asking for, you know, the person at Taco Bell to not put cheese on my bean burrito, that's pretty reasonable, right? Or if I'm traveling, you know, in a five star restaurant, I'm gonna reach out to them beforehand and say, can't wait to come, I see what your menu looks like, your your chefs are so creative. And this looks like an a phenomenal experience. I'm vegan, what can you do to accommodate me? You know, however, I want to phrase it. And you know what, the majority of the time they say, Oh, we would absolutely love to do that. And then starts the conversation and starts the the, the relationship, that's what I have found invariably. Now, let's talk about the middle part, which is not the fast food restaurant or the five star restaurant, but have i i have never been at risk of starving. Ever, ever, wherever I have traveled doesn't mean I'm going to get a gourmet meal, every place I go, No. But again, it's about me calibrating my own expectations, I just kind of use the example of the fast food restaurant, right? If I'm expecting something that is unreasonable, that's different. But if sometimes the expectation is just I need to fill my belly because I'm hungry, or I need to fill my belly because I need energy, right? That is totally reasonable. And I've never been at risk of starving, there's always food somewhere, there's always and that's, you know, kind of one of the, the, you know, the Bane and the boon of living that at the time we do is that there was always something to find there is even if it's just gonna be like some spaghetti with some olive oil and salt and pepper, that's fine. If it's going to fill my belly or, you know, fruit, I can find an even a, you know, a quick way or something. As for, you know, staying with people and hosts and that kind of thing. Again, I think it really underestimates their desire to want to, you know, support us if they've invited us over to their home, they probably care about. They're probably kind people, I would wouldn't say, you know, misanthropes would invite someone into their home. So I'm going to just again, my assumption is that they care. Now, here's the crux, if I ask for what I want, or I say, thank you so much, that looks wonderful. I don't eat animal products. Can you know I'm fine with just the past, if you want to just give that to me with olive oil. Don't worry about the meat sauce. I don't need it. Thank you so much, though. If they take that as being rude, that's not mine. Mm hmm. So Will some people perceive that as being rude? Yes. And some people won't. So why would I take on the one who thinks it's rude, but I don't take on the one who doesn't think it's rude. I don't say, Gosh, I must have been amazing and done something right there because they gave me what I wanted. Why would I go, Gosh, I'm really a horrible person and I can't I you know, I can't put somebody in a position like that because they think it's rude. Do you understand? Yeah, that's where we have to go, where do I end and another person begins now what's on us is to be as gracious and polite and respectful as possible, and reasonable as possible. And then the rest is not ours.Katie Kurpanek:
Yes, absolutely. Which again, goes back to what we mentioned earlier, where all of this ties into individual self growth. Again, this is something that is important for all of us to learn, whether it has to do with you know, food or some other social norm, like we cannot take on responsibility for other people's feelings or reactions. You know, when people use the phrase like, Oh, you made me so mad or you hurt my feelings. And really, we have to figure out for ourselves that actually I am in full control of my feelings. What they did may have been perceived as rude what they did may have perceived been perceived as hurtful, but really, I'm in control of the way that I react to that. And so once we start to do that inner work, and the more everybody is trying to do that inner work, then our social communications and interactions will grow from that because we'll be able to To realize that we are not purposefully most of the time trying to hurt another person.Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Which is why we also have to remember that, that it goes the other way that most of the time, they're not trying to hurt me. They're just doing that we're all just trying to get by in this world, right? And we're emotional beings as much as we're social beings. And so we take things personally. And most of the time, it has nothing to do with us. So if you know my mother, and she did when I first became vegetarian, vegan, you know, how could you do this? To me? That is completely unreasonable. Right? But that's how she took it. Now, when I was young, I'm sure my reaction was Meh-meh-meh, right? No, I didn't understand when we're young, you know, we don't understand. And so we could skyrocket understanding if we could just understand this, that what what's true about that is that she felt that way. But that wasn't true. And that I didn't have to take that on. And to understand that, oh, gosh, why is she saying that? This doesn't have anything to do with me. She's not trying to hurt me, because she really was like, I have a roast in the oven, you'll eat it. And I'm like, No, you know why? And I was like, gosh, you don't understand me. You, You never want to help me. And you know, this is always just about you. I didn't stop and go, Wait, why is she reacting this way? That's the mature way to respond, right? Oh, because she feels that I'm attacking her or she feels that I am judging the way she cooks. And I'm judging the way she eats. And I'm judging the way she raised me. Oh, oh, that's what it's about. It's not about me. It's about how she's feeling. And maybe she has insecurities about that and fears about maybe she didn't do it well, right. That's the mature way to respond to that. So it goes both ways. It's that I don't have to take things personally. And if someone else takes something personally, that's also not mine. So that's just practice. And, you know, great, now we have an opportunity to practice that. Because even when there's the How could you do this to me? And how could you just your grandmother, she'd roll over in her grave if she knew you weren't eating her chicken soup, right? That like, to be able to, to, to give them the gift of no, like, and also you conveyed You know, again, you're the one who taught me, compassion, and you're the one who taught me, you know, kindness, I mean, this has nothing to do with you, it's, it's, it's, it's all about my values.Katie Kurpanek:
And hopefully, this would open the door to, you know, conversations that have long lasting impacts that go beyond just what you're eating. Because really, it's most of the time not going to be about the food itself. It's all the things that you mentioned, it's, you know, it could be fears and insecurities. It could be, you know, our family's history and the recipes that have been passed down. And, you know, I think that these conversations, once the people involved in them, are able to come from grounded places, grounded in their own emotional control. And I know that that's not easy to do, and it may take several attempts. But eventually, maybe these conversations could then continue to grow and, and reach other parts of your life that maybe you need to talk about with this person. And it'll have such a long lasting impact there.Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Absolutely. And it also again, modeling just how we see it. So again, we have to start with our own self, you know, conversation, and then and then how we model that to others. So you know, one of the things and this goes back for travel, and this goes for family and culture is one of the things that is really true, is that the foundation of most of the foods we eat were plant based. It is just the fact. And so when people say things like and I've heard every and I talk about this in the book, I've heard every single ethnicity nationality, say I'm x, I could never be vegan. Just name it. I have not heard one. I'm Italian. I could never. We grew up on meat. I'm Polish I grew up on meat, I'm Irish we grew up on meat, I'm Mexican, I'm Salvadorian, whatever it is every single culture because once you know once we were becoming industrialized, once there was colonization, meat has always been the symbol of affluence product of affluence, not even a symbol, it has always been that. So as cultures and countries became more colonized, and that usually meant richer countries who are colonizing poor cultures, then then animal products were brought in. And it was a sign of affluence. And so that is the that is the fact. What's also the fact is that prior to that most of the foundation of these diets were plant based, you can name any culture. And so to be able to see through that lens when we're traveling, and this is what happens on our trips, because not only do I travel individually, but we actually host trips, vegan trips around the world. And so what's so beautiful For us, when we come as a group, and we are working with the purveyors, whether it's the restaurants or the hotels, on the food, which is so exciting. Everywhere we go, they say, Oh, you're eating our food, you're eating like the food of our people versus these Americans coming in and wanting all of the, or any the north, the Europeans, whatever it is coming in and saying, you know, we want the steak, we want the shrimp, we want the lobster, we want the best of it, right? We're coming in and saying, we want the food of your culture. And, and, and we you know, we do veganize some things. I mean, it's not like it's all going to be you know, whole plant base. Tuscany is we eat the way Tuscan we eat the way people eat. In southern Italy, we eat the way people eat and different in Rwanda, in Botswana, we eat the food that they eat, right. And we also love being able to say, to work with the chefs to say we want that, you know, we don't want vegans to feel like they can't get you know, the traditional thing that might have dairy or might have eggs. So we love veganizing that sell as well. But to be able to convey to people when we're traveling, or to our families and say, grandma, mom, dad, whatever this, this is, like, if you took away that one little thing, for the most part, like pizza, for instance, I mean, pizza marinara, it was the first pizza, it wasn't cheese, it was just, that was sauce. And so, you know, when and our grandparents will remember that. Because they will say, you know, you're that's how we grew up, we grew up and you know, especially for those of us who grew up with with parents or grandparents who were in the Depression, and I know that we're kind of moving away from that generation, you know, as time goes on, but but this is the way people ate when they didn't have the money for the very expensive animal products and very expensive not in terms of money, but also expensive in terms of the costs that we pay, raising animals. For our consumption, the cost, we pay in our health cost, we pay in the environment, the cost the animals pay, but also literally the cost we pay in terms of dollars.Katie Kurpanek:
Yeah. And now I mean, this, I won't say much about it, because this could take us on an entire nother tangent, but it's it's mind blowing to me now to think about how we have typically very quick access to fast food where you can buy, you know, like a meat sandwich or hamburger for like $1 or $2. And it's no longer that, you know, it's no longer viewed as that expensive most of the time. But then like you said, you have to look at the bigger picture. Why is it? Why are we able to buy it at that cost? In my mind, that's a red flag right away, like what's wrong here. And we have to look at the bigger picture and the true cost of all that goes into making that food. But like I said, we won't get into all that because that's another topic for another time. But you recently had a video go viral on Instagram that I loved. As soon as I saw it, I saved it. And you just talked about the very simple usage of language. And it struck a chord with a lot of people like when you use words like meat, cheese and milk. Can you talk about how you have helped people to shift their perspective around those words?Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Yeah, so even just backing up from meat, cheese and milk, it's actually we use words like alternative and substitute and fake and faux and analog. Those are the words we tend to use when we talk about plant based meats, plant based dairy and plant based eggs, or plant based cheese, all of it. And I'll say plant based eggs mean that eggs are quite a unique category. But for the most part when we when we and everyone else talks about plant based versions of the animal products. Invariably we use words like fake and faux and alternative and substitute as if the barometer is by which we measure everything we eat is animal products. And so anything then that's not an animal product is not real, it's fake. It's faux, it's it's unsubstantial, it's unreal, it's illegitimate. And so language again, this goes back to what we keep saying about how we frame it in our minds so that when we communicate it, it's done in such a way that normalizes it, right? I mean, I could, like, that's what this is about is normalizing compassion, and normalizing the consumption of plant foods. And so when so I just really, you know, I would never tell people what to say, and you know, don't say this word and do say this word, but I will just tell you that I practice not using those words when I'm talking about plant based anything. So to give more credibility to that, I also love the history of words and and the way that words have changed meaning over time and the way that words have more than one meaning. And so for instance, meat is probably the best example of this because today when we hear the word meat, it is A very narrow definition that means connotes specifically animal flesh. That is what we think of when we say meat, right? It is interesting and worth noting that the word meat is an old English word, "meta" is how it would have been pronounced, and that word just simply meant solid food, it just meant food. And so it didn't mean the flesh of an animal, the word that would have been in Old English to convey animal flesh would have been [german] flesh, because Old English is a Germanic language, right? So it would have been [german], it would have been flesh. And so you would have like, [german], it would have been chicken flesh. That's how you would have said it. Now today, when we say the word flesh people like oh, that's Oh, they're gonna say that. And yet, it's such a perfect word, because it is the flesh of an animal. And so, so, you know, we would have, we would have said, cow flesh, chicken flesh, pig flesh, we would have said that, that's how you would have differentiated in Old English and in Middle English, how you would have differentiated between the different types of animal flesh and non animal flesh, you would have used the word meat to talk about, and you would have used the word herb herba erba, to talk about plants, right? So over time, and over time, that word has become narrowed to mean animal flesh. But we still use the word meat in our language everyday when we say the meat of a nut, the meat of the matter, the meat of a coconut- coconut meat. And And it's funny, because when people start paying attention to language in the new year, vegan lingo, you said meat, yeah, doesn't just mean one thing, right? And so what I tried to do is, is again, kind of give permission to use the word meat because yeah, we might not remember that in Middle English or Old English, the word meat conveyed, you know, solid food, but it is to say, coconut meat, not meat, that kind of thing. We do use that meaning, we still have that meaning. And we can say things like plant based meat. And I do think it's really important to say plant based meat, or, you know, grain meat, that's one of the things I loved about Field Roast. When Field Roast first came on, came on the scene, they talked about their sausages as grain meat, because it's made from grain. And I, David Lee, who is the founder of field we just talked so many times about just the use of language, and it is so important. And so and so talking about plant based meat and also differentiating it from animal meat, I think I think is really powerful and getting away from using the words like fake and faux and then so to further that with milk, same thing you tell a woman that you know that she can't call her breast milk breast milk, because it's only supposed to be used for this commercial product that we've commodified animals to sell and so what she's supposed to call it breast beverage. Now, the word milk is abroad, you know, now it's very specifically we tend to think about and I love to see that this is changing over time when I first became vegan, it was very different but these days at least we are seeing more and more people use plant based milk as the term not fake milk. You know the industry will call it that the dairy industry will call it that but I am seeing changes in that call it oat milk, call it plant based milk call an animal milk, call it cow's milk, call it goat's milk differentiate one from the other. Butter is another one butter really has more to do with fat than dairy. And so we say peanut butter we say almond butter, we say cocoa butter we say cacao well we say butter in other contexts, but yet when we talk about dairy based butter, we usually say fake butter. So when so So again, using the language that is going to normalize these foods goes a long way in how you perceive it and yourself and how you convey it to model it to other to other people. It's it's powerful words are powerful thing. So that's, it's one of my favorite topics is to talk about language and how we frame all of this.Katie Kurpanek:
Yeah, no, I have loved hearing you because you've been talking about that for as long as I've been listening to you, but that one video in particular just had like, summed it up. So you know, it's like, in order to even put videos up on Instagram anymore. It has to be like 90 seconds max, but it really makes that so concise for people to understand. And it's helpful for me hearing this conversation because raising my child vegan as well. You know, it's interesting thinking about it. I don't always think about that for myself in my own language when I'm talking with people about what I eat, but then when I'm you know, serving him meatballs, or you know, mac and cheese, it's like, well, that's what this is. It's just plant based, but we're just going to call it I mean, for him when he starts to put his words together. I'm like, he's not gonna go tell people like I'm eating plant based mac and cheese. Maybe when he gets older he will but for right now, it's like this is it's just easier to say it that way and it helps to normalize what we're eating, I think in terms of culture. So thank you for expanding on that. I I know we're getting close on time, and I have a completely curveball question that I wanted to throw out there if you were still okay to hang in there with me for a minute. Okay. So, this question, it has been so important to me from the beginning of planning this podcast to ask it, but I had not found yet the right person to ask. And I couldn't find any, like vegan conservationists that I was looking for. But anyway, I know that based on your podcast episodes, you have talked a lot about this. And the final kind of like, argument against being vegan that I've heard from a lot of people has to do with conservation and the fact that, in their opinion, you cannot conserve our wildlife and our natural ecosystems and habitats without killing, like hunting and fishing, and that that's just part of the process. Like we have to, you know, get these predators out of the way, or we have to, like kill the invasive species that are now taking over the natural species. And this is all just part of like the circle of life. So we have to help with that. And in my mind, it just doesn't sit right. Because I don't think we have to help with that. I don't think that we did, you know, years and years and years ago at the beginning. And now we've actually been the ones to disrupt these ecosystems so much that I think now we've kind of like created a problem where we feel like, we have to fix it. But do you have any thoughts on conserving our wildlife and natural ecosystems compassionately, that we could just, you know, throw out there for the end of this conversation completely not related?Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Oh, gosh, I think we should just do a whole episode on this, I think it's such an important conversation to have. Because even if someone's using that as an excuse to not go vegan, that is just an absolute excuse is absolutely ludicrous. Because it's not a reaction to veganism at all. It is just, again, the way we want to frame things to feel better about what we do. So the irony is that if we really want to celebrate conservation, and really practice it properly, then we need to stop killing. And I don't just mean the wildlife, we're killing. I mean, quite literally, because of this institutionalized slaughter that we have, where we bring 10 billion animals into this world only to kill them. That is one of the very things that is impacting wildlife, in many, many ways. Just take cattle, the idea that we run wild animals off of their lands so that we could have these invasive species by the way, cattle in the United States are invasive species, they were they're not native to the United States, and many other places. So to take the wild, the native wildlife off of their land, that would you could say is what our tax dollars pay for is that while is conserving that wildlife, so the private industry could have their domesticated invasive animals graze. And not only wreak havoc on the grassland itself, but also remove the native grasses to put the alfalfa like literally to plant other and I don't just mean it's factory farming, I mean, literally planting grasses in these grazed lands, that are not native grasses, so that we could then kill them. In the meantime, we've killed the wildlife so that we could raise and kill the domesticated animals makes absolutely no sense. So if we really, really, really cared about conservation and conserving wild space and wild animals and wild plants, then we need to really take a long, hard look at this industry where private companies get to make decisions about public spaces. So that's number one. Number two, is that we, I mean, I've said it already it was we were killing that the animals and so not only are we killing the herbivores, because we're literally taking horses, who, when we do look at the history, the record, horses and donkeys are native to North America, and they are native to the United States, especially these areas where they naturally in the west where they naturally graze. So not only do we take herbivores away because we don't want them to be eating the grasses and the plants that the private domesticated cattle are eating. So we're killing the herbivores, but that private industry gets to also decide which carnivores are killed because they don't want their stock quote unquote, their livestock to be threatened or killed by public carnival oars have every right to be in these lands in these spaces, where as a private company, they get to use our tax dollars to have their animals protected from natural wild carnivores. Right. So that's a problem right there. Again, he really cared about conservation. It's the livestock. It's the it's this private industry that is influencing and affecting and getting to make decisions about public lands. And then finally, yeah, we're killing way too many animals in the name of invasive species conservation, you know, balance of things, blah, blah, blah, the things are total, because we have up ended things because we have taken away the predators because, you know, people don't want to, you know, I will, but I wouldn't be able to let my dog outside and run in the backyard in the fenced area, which, by the way now also impacts migration of wild animals, that I can't let my dog out at midnight without me being there, and, you know, watching over them, because a coyote might come, we don't want well, you know, we don't want the predators in our backyards, people freak out if they see a coyote, you know, and yet these are like the natural animals that would actually take care of the population, they would be able to control the population naturally. So the idea that somehow, like being vegan is the thing that, yeah, no, we wouldn't be able, we, we this is the only way to do it, killing invasive species, killing carnivores. And just having this this, this policy that is not sustainable, that's cruel, that that actually has impacts on other animals as well, because a lot of the methods that are used for killing these animals in the name of conservation, it's not just trapping, it's also poisoning, which also affects the entire food chain. So now, it's just a bunch of bunk. And if we really cared, we could make a lot of changes, but it has to come on the policy level. And that's why we have to make it we have to vote, we have to know who's in power, we have to make sure that we're helping change these policies. And I'm encouraged, because I just don't think that I'm 100% certain that this model that we have right now, is not sustainable, this model of in terms of protecting private livestock companies. And, and and, and raping and killing wildlife. That's not sustainable. But also, and this is a different conversation. But in terms of what we do see, because this conservation model has also been used as an excuse in places like Africa, where people used to go and just, you know, it used to just be the sport to go and kill these animals to just hang them on your walls. That wasn't done in the name of conservation, it's only now that we tend to use conservation as the excuse to justify what people want to go spend 1000s and 1000s of dollars to do so that they could you know, have an Instagram, you know, post or hang the animals on their walls. But what we do see in terms of these, that example, is eco conservation and tourism. I mean, the the gorillas, the mountain gorillas of Rwanda is the best example of ecotourism taking over where these animals were being decimated. Again, not in the name of conservation, it was in the name of trophy hunting, but these and you know, taking them for a season also poaching them, because because they you know, they were impacting again, livestock, it all comes back to livestock, even in Rwanda. But what we've seen is the success of a model like people going and traveling to see the mountain gorillas not to hurt them not to harm them. It is the number one industry in Rwanda is the is the travel, going to see the mountain gorilla. So there's a lot to say around all of this. But that thread that runs through all of these problems when it comes to wildlife is the thread is is livestock. The thread is beef, the thread is cattle, the thread is is animal agriculture. And that's a real problem. Oh, sorry, long answer, but I don't know if that's,Katie Kurpanek:
that's perfect. That is perfect. I just so appreciate you sharing that little bit of information there. Because it was well, one so unrelated to the rest of the questions I had for you. But I know based on your experience, that you would be a great person to just like, kind of just put those thoughts out into the world out into our listeners years, and people can think on it more and do their own research. And if we ever have another podcast episode down the road on it, I would love to dive deeper into that topic. But thank you so much for your time and for what you do everything that you do is so, so meaningful and impactful to tons and tons of people and I'm sure you know that but it's always good to just be able to say you know, out loud and to your face. And I would love if you could just kind of end our time with, you know, resources for our listeners. How they To get in touch with you. And then if you have like your favorite one, you know, or two or three actionable steps that they could take as soon as today to just learn more about everything that you've shared and being more equipped in social settings, especially around like being vegan.Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
Yeah, well, first of all, just know your why. And if there's something that bothers you about something you're participating in, then go and go there go toward the pain, because that's the only way we learn. It's the only way we grow. So go, just you know, it's that willful blindness that stops us from all of the things you and I are talking about. And the beauty of this and being open. And, and this journey, if we stop ourselves from looking, we really deny ourselves this opportunity. So go look, be willing to look be willing to learn. So that's the number one thing I would say. And you don't have to do it alone. There's so many resources out there. I mean, you just have to google anything you're looking for. I mean, this is not no just to I mean, maybe it's a shameless plug. But I'm really proud of the work I do. So you know, check out my podcast Food for Thought I've got 16 years of episodes, but also the 30 Day Vegan Challenge, you know, there is a real difference between saying, Yeah, I'm going to cut down on eating meat, and actually say, I'm going to do this for 30 days, because when you do it for 30 days, you actually develop new habits that you wouldn't have otherwise tried. Because you're just not going well, you know, I'm going to do this for 30 days, I'm going to actually challenge myself, and I have an online program, and I have a book and both of them are meant to like walk you through the whole, the whole journey. And then the joyful vegan is like also understanding all this, we talked about the social aspects of cultural aspects, finding your voice bearing witness, not overbearing witness, and not you know, just making sure we find the balance to be able to live in a way that is reflecting our values. That to me is my big ask for everyone. And, you know, you've heard me say this, like, it's not that we can make a difference, it's that we do make a difference. Everything we do has an impact, we just get to decide if we want that impact to be negative, or positive. So and I saw this on your website, and I will just say it because it has to be said, and thank you for including the quote, because I think it's moved more people than anything else I've ever said, which is when people have come to me and said, I really tried, you know, being vegan, but it was hard. Or I could give up everything, but I couldn't give up cheese. And my answer was, well, you're doing nothing because you can't do everything that makes absolutely no sense, right? The idea that we wouldn't make any change because we think we have to do all of it is just self defeating. So don't do nothing, because you can't do everything, do something, anything. Everything we do has an impact. And every step we take gets us closer to the people we want to be and that's my ask for everyone. So just be true to your own values and and know that you're not alone. You're here with lots of support, including you and thanks for what you're doing. Katie, thank you so much. And thanks so much for having me on.Katie Kurpanek:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I know that you know this, but I literally have part of that quote tattooed on my arm becauseColleen Patrick-Goudreau:
I forgot! Oh my gosh, I was gonna ask you what your tattoo was, I completely forgot.Katie Kurpanek:
There's yeah, there's just the word something and anything below it, you know, with the bands that go across my arm and, I am not kidding you, I- well obviously I'm not I wouldn't have it on my arm otherwise- but it has been a daily reminder multiple times a day, in everything in my life because I am just that type of person who gets stuck in the all or nothing box. And I feel paralyzed. Sometimes if I feel like I can't do it all I can't help someone to the fullest extent that I want to or I can't do this project to the fullest extent that I want to and also my environmental impact and eating and veganism. But anyway, it really serves as a daily reminder to just do something and this podcast, the work that I do, it is my something-anything and that is so much thanks to you. So it's been a joy to talk with you.Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:
I am so moved. Thank you so much. I just I love it so much. I can't wait to share this with everybody. So yeah, thank you, humbled.Katie Kurpanek:
I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and if you did, I would love it if you would share it with a friend. Spread the word over your social media, or simply leave a review wherever you subscribe to this podcast to help others find it as well. Thank you so much for being here. I'll catch you next time.