Effective Communication Skills with Vegan Psychologist: Clare Mann

Have you ever felt like you needed to hold back your truth for the sake of someone else's approval? Do you struggle to communicate effectively in ways that feel like both/multiple perspectives are being shared and truly heard? Have you found it challenging to navigate the trends of social media and current cultural norms while trying to find your own voice through it all? 

Clare Mann, Vegan Psychologist, Existential Psychotherapist, best-selling author, speaker, advocate, AND communications trainer, joins Katie Kurpanek, Eco-Living Coach and Podcast Host, to share examples of effective communication within relationships. As part of her job and her personal nature, she shares "provocative" questions and thoughts that challenge both social and media norms, and she shares many "inconvenient truths" she has learned over the years as well.

Clare has claimed the "vegan" title for herself, and she helps me to introduce this brand new Season 3 where we'll be exploring all things vegan, but this conversation goes way beyond what we choose to eat and will leave you with treasured tips that you can apply to all your relationships!   

Additional Resources:

• Clare's website: www.veganpsychologist.com 

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To learn more with your host and Eco-Living Coach, Katie Kurpanek, visit www.thatminimallife.com for blog posts and personalized coaching info!
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More about Clare Mann:
www.veganpsychologist.com
www.claremann.com

Transcript

Katie Kurpanek: 0:06

You're listening to all things sustainable, where we unpack topics related to sustainable living, as well as how to apply specific actions to your own life. I'm your eco living coach and podcast host Katie Kurpanek. Let's jump in. Hello Hello everybody. Welcome back. I am so happy to welcome you back to the All Things sustainable podcast, we are officially diving into season three. And in this season, we will be talking all things vegan. I will tell you I have had this particular series in mind since before I even created this podcast since it was just like a dream living in my head. And it has taken over 10 months in the making to come to fruition. So a major shout out and thank you I owe to Dr. Joanne Kong, if you're listening. Hi, Dr. Joanne, you have been an amazing support in getting this series off the ground. She helped connect me with the incredible well, many of the incredible speakers that you will be hearing from in this series and so many of them are world renowned experts on these topics. I personally claimed the vegan title nearly five years ago, but there is so much more to this lifestyle than simply what I eat. But I am going to share my personal story and like save my own journey to veganism as the series finale. So the final episode, I will share all that with you because first I want you to hear from these experts. I want you to hear from some of the world's leaders in these areas. And we're going to be talking about the the hard questions, the awkward questions, things you might be wondering about vegan vegetarian lifestyles, you know, all of that whether it's really better for the planet, you know, what are the health benefits or risks, what about like social and cultural norms and you know, different awkward or sensitive situations that you might want to navigate there, we'll talk about how there's a connection between human rights and animal rights. We're also going to clear up a lot of common misconceptions or even just unfortunately, common experiences that you may have had with people who are vegan, but you know, they came across as very like shameful or condescending, or even really like condemning you for not aligning with their choices. And of course, we're going to clear up a lot of misunderstandings about what it even means to be vegan, and what it does not mean to be vegan. Okay, so there's a little summary of what you can expect coming in this series. And I'm so excited to tell you that this will be the first season so far that I will actually be able to release weekly episodes because I have taken so long to put this all together, I'm actually much more prepared this time around. And so every episode will be released every Saturday, between now through the beginning of November 2022. I know that I'm biased, but honestly, every single episode in this series, you are not gonna want to miss every guest speaker that I have the absolute privilege of speaking with. They're amazing. There are doctors and authors and world renowned speakers and activists and just incredible people on this podcast and you are not going to want to miss one of these. So if you haven't already subscribed to the show, wherever you're listening from, be sure to subscribe so that you just get notified automatically when these episodes have been released every Saturday, and then you'll be sure to tune in. It was honestly really challenging to figure out which episode I wanted to be the first to kick off this series because they're also amazing. But I felt like it was really important to set the foundation with a trained psychologist and communications trainer because nothing that we talk about in the rest of this series is even going to matter if it feels like we can't communicate and I know that I'm just speaking into your headphones or wherever you're listening from. And we can't necessarily communicate with each other right now. But the messages and the information that I am wanting to share with you, I want to be able to set up a solid foundation so that we feel like we can trust each other and you are able to hear all of this information and not feel condemned or judged or shamed by any means. I simply want to open up doors of communication that may not have been opened before on this topic. So all of that to say today you will be hearing from Claire man. Claire is a psychologist. She is an existential psychotherapist a best selling author, speaker and communications trainer, and she is based in Australia. She has written many books. Her newest book includes myths of choice, why people won't change and what you can do about it. She has lots of online video trainings, she's given more presentations than I can count and been a speaker on multiple media platforms. And she really specializes in helping people to navigate communicating through their relationships, and consulting with people worldwide to address personal and social challenges of being vegan while living in a mostly non vegan world. She says in this episode, that part of her job as a psychologist, and also even just as a human being is to ask questions, and she describes those questions often as being very provocative. And I can tell you, that is a perfect word for this episode, get ready to settle into a really great conversation that is also full of some like uncomfy topics, we go back and forth asking each other in, you know, questions and sharing experiences that have had both of us feeling very uncomfortable before. And I'm so curious to see how many of you are able to relate to this conversation. I know that this episode is a little bit longer today, since I gave you kind of a brief introduction of the whole series. And now we're getting into the episode, but I hope that you will take the time to listen all the way through the end. Everything that she shares, her stories, her tips and her tricks, it is just so worthwhile, and it will definitely be applicable to multiple areas of your life, not just around being vegan or not being vegan. So Okay, welcome. Welcome to season three. Let's dive into our very first episode. Claire, I am so very happy to have you on the podcast. I know you and I have chatted a bit before and I've just been dying to have this conversation ever since then, because you are just like a wealth of knowledge. And I know that you will have so much insight to share with our listeners today.

Clare Mann: 7:09

Oh, well, thank you. It sounds thanks for everything you're doing and bringing this very sort of eclectic way of looking at how we can be part of a solution to create a world we all want to belong to.

Katie Kurpanek: 7:19

You're welcome. I'm so glad that we're all in this together. I did give my listeners like a brief kind of introduction to who you are. But you know, reemphasizing, you are a psychologist who's based in Australia, and you are an existential psychotherapist, did I say that correctly?

Clare Mann: 7:36

You did. You're the probably the first person who has for that.

Katie Kurpanek: 7:40

Okay, good. And then on top of that, you are also a best selling author and a speaker and an activist and a communications trainer. So I feel like if there's one person who can help us navigate this whole episode, where we'll be talking about, like, how do we improve our communication within our relationships in general, I'm sure a lot of these tips can translate into that. But then specifically, when we're talking about veganism, I know that I'm personally vegan, but I never want to lead from a place of like shame, or, you know, any kind of guilt tripping tactics. I don't think those are very, like healthy motivators, and they're definitely not making progress. And so, anyway, in this conversation, I'm really excited to talk with you more in a very like well rounded place that you're coming from. Well, you tell us a little bit about yourself, though from you know, your own personal experiences and perspective, who you are, what you're passionate about, and then you know, some of the beloved people in your life and then after that, I would love to hear kind of your personal tipping point into adopting like a vegan diet and lifestyle.

Clare Mann: 8:43

Yeah. Well, where do I begin because you know, when someone reads, so a list of things they see you do in the world? Firstly, I'm pretty humbled by the fact that I've been able to do that and I've had teachers along the way and just direction that have maybe really lived my life on purpose. It's not been without its challenges. There's been some there were none of us get away without losses and deaths and griefs and money issues at some stage, all sorts of things. But one thing it does make me smile, it just makes you realize how old you're getting longer. I've lasted really? And so yes, I am a psychologist, I've always been interested in what makes people tick. And I had parents who were very philosophical really looking for, you know, what are we here for? What are we here for? And I had a wonderful father who sadly passed away last year at the age of 97. I might say, Wow, guy, he was in the Second World War and he did sort of but he always taught me as you know, you can leave the world in a better place than you joined it. That's what really what we're here for. And if we can make someone reduce someone's pain in some sort of way, well, that's a worthy thing to do. So very philosophical, always wanted to be a psychologist but worked and left school at 16 Actually and study later on, and sort of moved into that area of what makes people tick. And let's fast forward. I've been a psychologist for 30 years. But I also don't like a very prescriptive way, you know, of what we call pathologizing. The human condition, you know, we have big labels these days, anxiety, depression, you know obsessiveness, addictions. And they're very real, but they're really about the human condition. And when we literally make those as if there's something wrong with us, we go down that path, who wouldn't be anxious, depressed and obsessive living in a world that is crazy and speciesist as it isn't, with all the other challenges. But what I came across and extensionism the philosophy of what it is literally to live within a limited time or period on the earth, to be up against the limits of our culture, our time in history that were born our family situation. And I wanted to know, how was it that within this, and what choices did we have? Why was it that some people come from great deprivation, for instance, and go on to change the world, and others born with all the luxury privileged thing to be indulgent and just focusing on themselves, existentialism, which is a much bigger story, I can just expand on if you liked, it's a philosophy of what it is to live to be alive, really gave me a robustness in my training to be a psychotherapist, but also a dose of passion, that there was interpret theologizing the human condition, how can we turn these challenges? What are they telling us about how we're living, or we're not living on purpose? So I've journeyed through that journey. And it was about 15 years ago, that I was vegetarian from the age of 17. Back in the 70s. As soon as I just read about what happened at a slaughterhouse, I didn't see anything. I didn't experience anything. But it was so graphic and so wrong, that I just thought, nope, not doing it. I really wish I'd ask people questions. Because people thought you were weird in the 70s, if you were vegetarian, never heard of veganism. And it was 15 years ago that I came face to face with hunting of pigs and dogs thrown in cages. And my dear partner, Brendan, who I've been with for over 20 years now. And came back from where we were living in New Zealand near to Australia, and said, we saw these things happening with pigs and dogs. But what else don't we know? And he went did a lot of research and was horrified at how animals are kept in intensive conditions. And he made me sit down and watch all of them. And an overnight, we became vegan. Wow. Yeah. So that was 15 years ago. And with that, I became an activist as well and go on the streets and started helping organizations to communicate more effectively. And so my psychology has been very directed, I call myself a vegan psychologist, because people asked me to really, because said, you know, you understand the philosophy of the non use and exploitation of animals. So, that's kind of an abridged version. So I have Brendan in my life I have at this moment in time two rescue dogs one is 17. I've had for two years. And she sets Brody and I have Cosmo, who's a Australian cattle dog, cattle dog and the sets of legal running around with cattle, cattle, individual cows and bulls. And sadly, that's another story, of course. But he's another name for them is a blue healer, then like a patchwork quilt with the most amazing and he's 10 years old, another rescue. And I've had lots of rescues over the years. And I live in Australia. So is that a an abridged version to segue into what we're talking about today?

Katie Kurpanek: 13:52

That's wonderful. Oh, my goodness, what beautiful stories and experiences you've already had within your life, and you're still doing so much wonderful work today. And I love your website. That's a wonderful resource. I'm gonna have that linked in the episode description, you know, after our chat if and listeners are interested, but Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you for sharing. I know in this particular series, so this whole season three, we are just talking about all things vegan, on my podcast, and many facets of veganism are going to be covered. So we can really take a deep dive into what this means beyond just a diet. I mean, we do talk about nutrition and physical health benefits. But also we talk about its impact on our earth and climate change animal rights and human rights and how they're linked. We're going to cover very many facets. But in my mind, none of this will even matter. If we don't if I don't approach this from a respectful and an empathetic way. And if the communication of these points is off, or if it's lacking in some way then I know that, that will be a huge turnoff to a lot of listeners. And a lot of listeners have had really bad experiences in the past, talking with vegans who had, you know, kind of made them feel like condemned or something for their lifestyle. That being said, I'm wondering if, you know, we, meaning you and me today as we're talking, but then the listeners as they take things from this and they go about their day to day life? how can we all have balanced and respectful communications around veganism? Like where would you recommend a starting point be?

Clare Mann: 15:31

Sure? Well, once your thing is that balanced and respectful conversations full stop and needed in our world, we are living at a time when the counseling and the polarization and the demonizing of people that are making huge assumptions of where people are coming from, because they might have a different open up a topic. This is rife, and I really challenged this because, you know, open and respectful conversations means people's right to voice opinions. So let's take it outside of veganism and any other social justice or philosophical debate. We need to do this everywhere. And I think it starts the underpinning thing is we must challenge our assumptions. You know, when you know, somebody says something to us. So if I say what do you think Donald Trump, you know, our listeners, let's think about this, what's their reaction, and yet, it there's huge assumptions, because most people have not met him, they've never met anybody near him. They've only got this through social media. And yet we bounce out these terms. He's a womanizer. He's this. We have no evidence, but also when what is laid aside to us is all about other presidents Kennedy was a womanizer. And people resist. Now it's not about who's right and who's wrong and who's left and who's right. It's about asking question, What do you mean by that? Can you explain I don't understand where you're coming from? I'm surprised to hear you say you are aligned with that, say, for instance, if someone is, is there, something I don't know. So it's challenging our assumptions, that we know everything, but also the assumptions that what someone is saying, immediately identifies who they are, you know, and I think this can actually then be brought into veganism or any other topic, which is potentially emotional, because of how we've been lied to, you know, we have been lied to about so many things. And one, and I think, if we go is people that want to make a positive impact on the world, and it results in shaming is if Why don't you know that or you shouldn't do that. We start from the basis have we all been lied to here? It's just about on different issues. We wake up at different times, and they go well, there's more to see here. So in terms of committee challenging assumptions, I call them myths, unquestioned assumptions. This is and whenever you get a reaction in yourself, when I get a reaction me or you do immediately go, Oh, what is that button that's being pressed? We live in a world where we counsel the messenger, and we really don't need to do that we need to open dialogue. So really, we're talking about the basis of what we call empathic or active listening. And one of the golden rules is question question question. Okay, so let's just bring it into veganism. So veganism firstly, let's, let's ask the question. If someone says, Are you a vegan, and you might go, Well, let me ask you. Okay, I say to you so. So are you a vegan? How would you respond to me? Just off the top of your head? There's no right or wrong?

Katie Kurpanek: 18:37

Oh, I know. Because I'm totally going to overthink this. I'm like, well, I should probably ask you a question. Like, you know, how are you defining vegan or something like that? But really off the top of my head? I would probably say, Yes, I'm a vegan, you know, I don't consume any animal products. That's, like very bland way of describing it.

Clare Mann: 18:57

Okay, right. So depending on the person whose question which is us, me, I go, Oh, well, bully for you. I think we should eat animals. Where do you get your protein? Yeah. And then we get into this sort of food, okay. Oh, she's someone who don't, oh, are you allergic to me or you want to diet or, you know, we immediately go down that thing and there's nothing wrong, you know, it opens up in different ways. Never assume that someone knows what veganism is such a big mistake I've made we assume people know. But most people think it's a fussy vegetarian. There is unhealthy that is going against the norm is trying to shame you and be preachy. So if someone says, Are you vegan? I go well, I don't know really. What what do you understand by veganism? Okay. And then someone goes, Oh, it's one of those people dah-dee-dah, and you go, I'm glad you've asked me. Can I tell you? now that's another tip. So the other week firstly, you ask the first question is what do you mean by that? So you get their clarification and they might be bang on philosophy of the non use and non exploitation of animals and all areas of your life is much You can moving towards that. And then they tell you isn't quite right in Senegal now where you're not right? Or it's more than this you go, actually, you know, there are some points you've got there actually is more than that. Can I tell you, when we ask someone, if we can tell them something, it triggers something in the brain, they're giving us permission. So you're going to tell them something that is potentially uncomfortable? Because it's like, Well, I do anything to not use or exploit animals. And the person sitting there goes, well, we had a steak last night, are you telling me I used an exploit animals? You know, most people are not psychopaths, or horrible people. They're mostly good people doing that we're doing bad things, because we've been lied to about what the cost consequences. So by saying, Can I tell you the brain almost moves forward? And they go, yeah, that so they, they know, they could say no, this is the beauty. And then you go well, actually, it is partly about not eating animals, but it is the the non philosophy underpinning a person's life, which is about the non use and non exploitation of animals of which not eating them is just one of the behaviors. So when you ask me, am I vegan? Yeah, I guess I am. But you stop, because most people, no, I'll just tell them all about what goes on in factory farms and testing. And the person just asked you a question. So, you know, be respectful in the sense of a dialogue is backwards and forwards, is both trying to enlighten each other and open each other's eyes to hopefully, you know, having being better.

Katie Kurpanek: 21:29

Right, right. And sometimes it feels like you've got this sense of urgency, at least I can speak for myself. It's almost like this sense of urgency bubbles up, and it's like, oh, great, I have an opportunity to talk more about this. And so then this like fire hydrant worth of information comes out, then, like you said, the person just asked one question. And yeah, maybe they wanted all that information? Or maybe not, if chances are, it would probably be too overwhelming in the moment. So if we were to continue playing out that model kind of conversation, what are some examples in your own personal life of like different directions that that conversation could go from the introductory point that you gave?

Clare Mann: 22:13

Yeah, absolutely. So it's getting the the principles of communication under so it's questioning, it's making a contract, asking the person permission, you know, not overwhelming. But if you do that, you give them this big tirade, you know, and become aware of it and you need to become aware, don't you see them glaze over? Instead of sort of keep pounding them with information or pick up it or shut up, And then you go, yeah, but I haven't made myself clear. Point out that you're doing it. So you know, you're doing this, but I'm too close to this big tirade, because, you know, I've become aware of something that is so horrifying that I know that 99.9% of people not only listening to this podcast, but in the world wouldn't want to go along with this. They really got into the felt state, well, you know, 99 cents and 99% is, is your duty to tolerate, and you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, can I just stop that? I just heard my voice. Gosh, I'm done. You think I was on a moment ago evangelist on the stage when you? I am so sorry, I'm so overwhelmed you with this. And I'm sorry for that. However, what I'm not sorry about is sharing information with you that I wish someone had told me 20 years ago. So it's, you're not apologizing for what you're telling? Because people, please, you know, people when they really do get this, they wish someone had told them years ago? Yeah. So pointed out, it's what isn't right is the poor person is getting battered down. And taking on the awful things of the world, when they it's not really their fault, their choices and consequences. What they do is their responsibility, but not the whole of what's going on in the world.

Katie Kurpanek: 23:56

Right. The little bit of communications training that I've experienced in my life, you know, seems to always fall back to where's the connecting point between person to person and if we can find ourselves as relatable humans in the conversation. Yeah, always keeping in mind that, like you already said before, that this person is a living person with real feelings, who has a family and you know, whatever else and like just trying to remember what it could feel like to be in their shoes helps a lot to like reground yourself and then like you said, with pointing out your own tirade, as you said it it just I think it keeps things light as well. And I feel like people are maybe more willing to approach you whether it's in that same conversation or another. But let's say that this you know, let's say this conversation continues to play out or maybe you meet up with that person a few more times and like little bits of more of the vegan conversation comes about I I think one of my follow up questions would be then how do we avoid presenting ourselves in a way that's, you know, like, I'm better than you sort of light or, like, as if we're mandating veganism from everyone? Because the truth is, I think for most of us who would identify with the full description of being vegan that you said, like the non use and the non exploitation of animals, I think that we, we do want that for the world. But how do we balance talking about it in a way that's not like mandating it?

Clare Mann: 25:32

Yeah, well, it's an interesting one. Number one on what I will say is, there's nothing special about veganism or vegans. We are not, you know, whether we pat people on the back when they become vegan, largely because they were living in a non vegan world. And they've made that shift against the norm. It's actually a death culture. And it's not just about animals, it's about a much bigger sort of all different sort of areas. But I think when we become vegan, we stop taking what was never ours. And we just come back to ground zero, not causing unnecessary harm. You know, my mother, who sadly is no longer alive, is she always said that Claire, there's one principle in life, tried to live your life where you don't cause unnecessary harm. She said, That's it, really. And I thought, Really, that's it. Now, what she meant by that is unnecessary. That doesn't mean because it's convenient, or it's whatever, it's in every interaction we have, we can cause harm, or we don't know we can't get off. She said, You can't get away without causing people without influencing people to experience pain, you can't cause people pain, which is very interesting. She said, You know, because they have to bring meaning. So let's take for example, Kate, you're dating someone and they ask to marry you, okay? And? And you say no, okay, they may be hurt, they might experience hurt, because they have their dreams and hopes and whatever. Now, does it mean that you could change your mind and go and marry the person, of course you haven't. However, if you've been leading that person on, tantalizing them, pretending it's all going to happen, and you have absolutely no intention, you are causing unnecessary pain. So pain is experienced, but it's not unnecessary. So my mother explained it to me. So when we're in a conversation with people, you know, do we want to really throw it at them that you know, they're a murderer or something, or they're painful, this horrible stuff? When we know that is, is unkind? And we think, Yeah, but it's kind of justified because they're saying it's okay to do this. The person is often saying outrageous things, because it's really uncomfortable this, we have to admit to you that we've been lied to all our lives about what happens to our- gets on our dinner plates, or, you know, the immigrant workers that are working in slaughterhouses and are traumatized and come from after war torn countries and lack of education. And we're demonizing them, they're not all psychopaths, most slaughterhouse workers are not and they are deeply troubled, and they self harm. And then, you know, because you cannot live in to that dirty work that people were prepared to pay for. It, you know, so it's that how do we cause not live our lives not causing unnecessary pain? So not- It's a horrible phrase, but- sticking the knife in and going, or I'm going to make you suffer? Sometimes we might feel momentarily better that we think well, that told you then that what you're doing, you know, but does it actually add to this thing called raising consciousness kindness? Most people are not horrible people. They're just resisting in saying some outrageous things, because they just want you to get off their back. Yeah, can I give you an example?

Katie Kurpanek: 28:47

Oh, of course.

Clare Mann: 28:49

Yeah. Well, I live in Australia. So there was a lady there who and it's important to mention she was Aboriginal, which is a oh, we have a very sad time in our history there of absolute massacre of, you know, it's like before will William Wilberforce in the deep south of America. But anyway, I won't move into this whole issue because we have more slavery today. Real slavery, you know, actually, in terms of numbers, and all of it is wrong to use that level of violence on anyone. But Aboriginal people been really disadvantaged in that you know, over by the by the Brits and the different coming from Europe. Anyway, this it's important to mention that this lady that I bumped into in a shop was Aboriginal because she's actually was pulling out the card of actually what I have a right to do this. This is my culture, which added to the eating of animals. I'm just laying that as a sort of foundation, but I was walking in what's called an op shop. I like op shops. Do you have opportunity shops like secondhand shops?

Katie Kurpanek: 29:52

Oh, yes, we do but I've never heard it called that before. Op shops. Nice. I love that.

Clare Mann: 29:56

Yes, that's right. Because I buy all my things from op shops by the way. That's right. It's like a treasure hunt. But it's also it's not creating more stuff that we don't need. It's reusing. Anyway, I walk into the shop and the guy who's running the shop says, Oh, he says to this lady sitting down woman in about her 60s. He said, Oh, this is Claire. She's a vegan psychologist, to which the response was, Well, I'm a carnist. And I eat animals. I'm a carnivore, and I eat animals. What would you say back to that case? I'll give you the little example in a moment.

Katie Kurpanek: 30:33

Oh, my goodness, I think I wouldn't probably, uh, yeah, I would probably just sort of choke, I think that my face would immediately turn red from more of embarrassment of not knowing what to say. And I would probably just end up laughing and like, you know, and moving into a different part of conversation.

Clare Mann: 30:51

That's right, exactly. No, but her reaction is kind of out of proportion to what I say. He's just introduced me, hasn't he? Okay, so there's the tip, we're staying with what people are saying, when a reaction is out of proportion to, the pain has pressed a button. So already I knew, I kind of-- it's only because I've been doing this for so long. The communication, leadership training, whatever-- I kind of knew, I would say had her but she, there was a chink of, I could break the trance that because she was reacting. In other words, I don't want to talk to this woman, Claire, because she's going to tell me something I don't like so I'm going to say, and she said, No, I'm a carnivore. And I'm also Aboriginal and I can eat this is our culture, and you can't stop us. I haven't opened my mouth at this point, by the way. So let me just run through the conversation. And I'll tell you the whole thing that I did, I stood out and I did a video on it at some stage because it was so. So I go into the shop. Hi, this is Claire. She's a vegan psychologist. Well, I'm a carnivore, I'm also Aboriginal I can eat what I like, you're not stopping me. And I stopped and I said, Oh, what an interesting response to a job description, or job title. She said, Well, you can't tell me what to do and whatever, and whatever. And I said, Can I ask you a question? Maybe you ask a question. People come forward. I said, if I was introduced as a Christian psychologist, would you immediately tell me you were an atheist? And she were like this sort of thing, because she was suddenly realized that it was her reaction. And I said, so therefore, you might want to consider what it was that made you react in that way. But that's all I said. And I moved on. Now, that's me on a very strong day calm and reflective, isn't always that. What did I do is I stayed with what was so if she had said, Hey, you're a journalist, well, I can't stand journalists, or whatever, it would have been a similar thing. So it was a job title, she reacted to it. Because we have a background, we expect people to be resistant to veganism. And she expects Oh, I'm going to be a preachy vegan telling us you can't eat meat. We're not really talking about a pleasant introduction of politeness. Hey, this is Claire. This is you know, Susan, whatever. Okay, so, I, you stop, you stay with what is Oh, and it wasn't sarcastic. It was like, wow. Because the sarcasm in the voice is like, you know, immediately gets a resistance, you know, in court. And understandably, you know, sarcasm is a form of, you know, wit that is, is cutting and is unnecessary, and shaming. I just said, what an interesting response to a job description. And then she reacted again, knowing that actually your reaction was that a proportion to the pain, but I wasn't going to say, well, there you go. I told you so. And then I said, What an interesting if I said to again, gave her a dilemma and analogy. If I was a Christian psychologist, you can tell me you're atheist. Yeah. So to me, if then. So it was because it's the same thing. And then she sort of didn't want to say because she obviously realized it wasn't about that it was about a reaction she had, which means she's much nearer to veganism than we realize that she wouldn't have a reaction. She'd just be happy with her choices. And then I said, this is important. If I had said to her, you might want to think why you said that. To the listeners try to you there is a difference between what and why when we ask why people will give us a defensive response. Katie, why didn't you come to my party on Saturday? Okay, you're gonna give me a reason excuse you should have Call me whatever. If I say, Hey, what happened? You're more likely to share information. So I said, you might like to think about what it was that made you respond in that way. When we ask the question what we get information when we ask the question why we get a defensive response.

Katie Kurpanek: 34:43

Interesting. Yeah, that had like you said that would take this for me so much courage and a calm sense of steady self in order to be able to respond that way and one day, but it all comes from practice. And the more that you know, I'm learning so much So you've been through this conversation that I know I can now apply that and continue practicing. Find my steady voice, hopefully in another scenario when I need it. But I love that because I think that the key here, especially when it comes to veganism, I think that a lot of defense defenses go up on both sides. The person who's vegan and the person who's not often feels the need to defend themselves for like you said, the why behind what they're doing. So I wonder, I'm trying to think of a question now to go with this and kind of think through how else we can move beyond these defenses in conversations. Would it really just be asking more? What type questions if the conversation were to go on? Or do you recommend having these very, like, brief, you know, small conversations, and then just let that go? Let it be for a little while. And if we run into that person, again, if we know that person, and we'll see them again, then pick it up again? Yeah,

Clare Mann: 35:58

well, I think it's about being present in a conversation, there is no formula we can just there are some tools and techniques, be real with people means we mess up. You know, I am not always as clear and calm as that, I must say, Okay. I also say it also takes 20 years to be an overnight success. So you know, very much I had a mother that asked a lot of questions. And my father too. So you know, there was lots of they did ask a lot of why that I go back and tell them to say what. But because it's, so it's about being real. It's about you know, if you feel we know, in a conversation where there's resistance, and instead of going, you know, a judging one it would be. So why are you so resistant? You know, that sort of thing? You see, you know, there's something wrong, don't you? There's a shaming sort of this gets done to get a sort of adversarial response, as opposed to Whoa, what's happening? What have I said, that's resulted in you, you know, reacting like this? You know, you know, what have you heard me say, because most people react to something, as you say, it's this big bag of information that's coming assumptions is that often people interpret it while you're telling me what to do. And you haven't said that, the lovely phrase, often, you think you're better than I am. Now, number one, if you haven't mentioned anything about anything like that, you've got a good clue about where the person is coming from, they feel that either you are better than them, or that you're saying you're better than them we go. So they simply say to you is to stay with whatever someone's saying, you just think you're better than me, Katie. Whoa, what is it that makes you say that? Well, it's obvious, you think I'm not a vegan, therefore, I'm going to hell and whatever. And go, Whoa, what was it I actually said that makes you come to that conclusion? Well, it's obvious go well, I can tell you, it's I am not saying I'm better than you. If I know I'm not better than you. However, what I do think is there are some better choices we can make, when we fully see how people have lied to us, that we can make better choices. The Golden word is we as well. We, you and me are in this together. We've all been lied to. When I think we can make better choices. Of course we can. And then someone says, Well, what if I find out about this, and I don't sort of come to this conclusion, you may say to them, why don't let me just raise a scenario to you. If we don't need to kill baby cows. For um to have milk in our coffee, dairy milk? Is it better-- Is it preferable to, what's better, choosing not to do it or doing it when it's not necessary? You know, it's, and then they go oh I don't know or do they say it's not about that, you know, it's our habits and tastes and things are separate thing. But the reality is, is both you and I know that it's not okay to cause this sort of pain when it's not necessary. It's just about the we've been told it's okay. Or we don't even know about it, we don't even so it's because we have it's a big shock, you know, when you realize how much you have been lied to, to partake in a system of violence that is unimaginable, almost, you know?

Katie Kurpanek: 39:13

Now, I think that I know what you're talking about, I definitely don't want to assume that I know exactly. But when you're referencing, you know, the ways that we've been lied to, and by whom, you know, my thoughts searching through kinda like, you know, my brains files of like, okay, this is what I've read. This is what I've seen in documentaries heard on podcasts. And it it usually has to do with, you know, governments in sync with agricultural organizations, and all of it is big business. And so then the marketing that is going to be geared towards us as consumers is going to make us think that we need these products when in fact, we actually don't. So is that I just want to clarify for your listeners, is that kind of what you're referring to, or would there be something else than that?

Clare Mann: 40:00

Yeah, well, it basically is how we have been lied to by governments and organizations. And sadly unwittingly, our parents who were lied to by their grandparents, not because they're horrible people is because that's what we always do. Yeah. So. So it's, that's absolutely. But I think one thing to point out when people, we have to give you an idea after the Second World War, and there's been so many wars since and there are more wars now, you know, right around the world. And we're only just told by the media, which ones we should focus on. But you know, it's is, and I don't say that to minimize, but I've actually, let's say, Ukraine, I've worked in Ukraine, I actually went over there several times. I was working in education over there. But this was in Syria, and Afghanistan, and all these places. But the media is now literally the arbiter of what we morality, and that shouldn't be in Facebook is what we should talk about what we shouldn't. And we've got to reclaim our freedom here and stop listening to major organizations that institutions are seeking to polarize and canceling control people. You know, we're the ones we've been waiting for. It comes through dialogue and community. But going back to the Second World War, in terms of the Germany and the rest of the world, ostensibly, is after the, in the UK and America after so going back to 1940s, you know, where did the food pyramid comes from this wonderful pyramid of what we're all meant to eat? I know, it's changed the plate and whatever. It came in the organization sitting with government saying, well, we've got to boost the economy. So if we create it was done by economists and business people, not dieticians, you know, that we had to eat more protein and you know, fats and carbohydrates. And it was purely a marketing effort to get people to eat more of the animal products, and duped them into believing is its health. And there has been a direct correlation, if not causally with cause and effect, actually, of how people's diets have changed. And the major cause six major causes of lifestyle diseases, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, respiratory disease, condition, all these things. Now, we have been lied to, but it was, so that would be one of the biggest lies. And so we go on about most people say where to get your protein from, but the reality is, that was created by economists and government knowingly, and they are still doing it. You know, what we see in our world today, and it's very inconvenient truths. But everything we're seeing at the moment, is the word term climate change. Is there climate change? Or is there absolute destruction, devastation, pollution? Climate change is a marketing term that is being used internationally, to actually get people to change behavior and take more control that way organizations, that's not because I'm saying it, it's actually laid out in the 21st century agenda of what this way. So the problem is, if I say that, and then maybe some listeners hear, Oh, she's a climate denier, can you see our freedoms taken away? You're either pro or against, as opposed to oh, well, Claire's clearly admitting, doesn't have to admit you can see it around us all. The evidence says there's absolute degradation of our environment, ocean, dead zones, pollution, emissions, you know, chemtrails, all these sort of thing. But once we use a phrase that is not given by us, as people desperate to have concern for Mother Earth, it's given by international organizations who are looking to come off strong by this as they do by animal industries, and children industries, and every other industry that uses others unwittingly, weak, I've got to ask the question, What else Don't I know, not come to a conclusion? It's Yes, this or it's no this. But it it's challenging, isn't it? Because it's, we're having conversations with people and people cancel or polarize. And that's not your dialogue.

Katie Kurpanek: 44:03

Thank you for those examples and clarification, because I think, if this is all that we know if this is all that we're surrounded with, and like you said, the media that we're taking in, it's really, really challenging to train our brains to think any differently. And then to even think through what kinds of questions what I respond to somebody with in a conversation, especially when I think a lot of the worst interactions that happen about these topics are always going to be online or over the phone somewhere where it's, you know, behind a screen and you're you're not face to face, you're not human to human. And so anyway, I think that this is this is all really good practice. And yeah, it's gonna be a lot. It's gonna take a lot of us to work on changing these habits, but it also makes me think about the other stories that we've told ourselves as a society and we've passed them down and you You know whether we can pinpoint exactly who is lying to who, or it's just a story that's been around for so much of our history, like some of the examples I'm thinking of are, well, we've always consumed animals, this is just what we've always done. You know, that's very vague, dismissive of many, many other cultures that actually have not always eaten animals. But, you know, there's responses like that there's responses like, and I know that this one can come from a religious place a lot of the time, you know, well, there's a hierarchy here within the species, and humans are supposed to have that top like dominion over everything else. And so we're supposed to eat these animals. So I think through these types of stories that we have told ourselves, and our ancestors have told themselves, how do we start? Those are very deeply rooted. So we How do you start to tackle? Yeah, how did we start to tackle these?

Clare Mann: 45:59

Sure, you know, they are bigger than one and we talk about different cultures and whatever. But, you know, I'm gonna be really provocative on your show. Can I do that?

Katie Kurpanek: 46:08

Of course,

Clare Mann: 46:09

you know, we are disasters in the last few short years has not shown us anything. Well, it's a time of a really a really questioning of everything of our relationships, how we treat people, you know, the different powers and influences, and to really reclaim our power of dialogue back with people in questioning, or not just getting a bit of information or social media, we've got to do the hard work and read the books, and watch the, you know, I try to make an example of when I have a perspective on something, I try to watch someone who's doing the complete opposite, and says, This is how it is. So if it's left or right, or whatever, is what they'll still say no, because I think it was Plato who said the philosopher, the sign of an educated mind is being able to hold information without having to accept it. And so we all need to encourage that is when you open your mind to so it doesn't mean you accept it. But you're actually saying, Well, let me just have a quick look here. So I'm making an intelligent response to it. You know, and I'm not blaming anyone here we've all been triggered by social media, is that is deliberately there to trigger us. So you don't have to watch some documentaries like, plugged in or social dilemma to realize how powerful and they want people to be fighting against each other. And that's not serving us not making a better world. But honestly, we are living in a Death culture. And as vegans, we've come aware of the ubiquitous is happening everywhere nature of the horror story to the mere sheer size of it is, you know, what is so horrifying and how it in every area of our lives is but it actually relates to all forms of finance, you know, I broke down so before our talk is, you know, there's war, there's organ trafficking, there's child trafficking, there's our medical system. The second I think it's a second or third reason for people die is prescription medicine, you know, wrongly diagnosed or wrongly doesn't work. And it's all of these are literally systems of violence and superiority. I so when we're trying to change something is we have to live in a sense of unknowing. What else Don't I know? And each starts with each conversation? Is we are, we've got the perfect storm, in many ways. Our school systems have been so broken down. Do you know where our modern school system came from? Katie?

Katie Kurpanek: 48:38

I feel like I should know because I was a teacher before this, but I'm not sure if I do.

Clare Mann: 48:42

But you actually probably don't know, because you were deliberately not told. Okay. It came from what's called a Prussian system, which was, it was after they were around the time of Napoleonic wars, is actually the soldiers were not doing as they were told they were questioning too much. And it was decided we if we're to get people to have a stronger army, we have got to make people conform more do is their tone, listen to authority. And so we created the school system, which was based on that which was literally about getting people to conform. And what's the first thing we do when we take children to school, they have to put their hand up, they'd have to ask permission to ask a question. Now, obviously, you might use might say that I'd have chaos. When we really start to look at our education system. It prepares us to, to learn facts and figures. I read some research the other day is children under the age of five, all of them are scoring very highly on creativity, like 85 90% of children will score incredibly highly by the age of 15. That creativity has gone down to 3%. That's not because these kids aren't bright. It's because the system is preparing people to join the economic socio economic slavery, which we equal work, which the vast majority of us are involved in, in the sense of, you know, this huge polarization of wealth most people are struggling put a roof over their head. You know, some people get to really enjoy what they do but not enough eight or nine people don't even want to be at work is actually the system creates us for that. So we've got education, we've got work, we've got families, we've got society, we've got left and right sort of views on this is how it should be now for us to change culture and culture being what the majority of think is normal. Let's start with our own lives. Let's start with our own families. You know, something small as Gandhi said. And he said if you think something small can't make a difference try going to bed with a mosquito tonight so I don't know if I'm asking answering the question. I'm raising big issues here. But it is a big issue but when we the change happens, it has to happen within ourselves. Think back over your life catering. Just think of the listeners here. There is going to be someone is it a grandmother is lady on the bus. Is it Rosa Parks is it you know, who is it is someone who said very little, but by their example of life inspired us to be better. Captain at the max implored us, you know, most people want to be good. Most people do not want to go around trashing people, animals or the planet. But we ended up doing it because we take as gospel what people are telling us in positions of powers that shouldn't be, who have their own best interests at heart. Without is actually to ask, you know, ask questions, see what we can do? How can we leave this place in a better condition we left it in was joined it in?

Katie Kurpanek: 51:53

I think that's so beautiful. Because I think when you are pointing out everything that you've said, so far, I think it for a lot of us can feel very frightening, to start to question everything around us. What what is it that I believe about this topic? Well, why do I believe that? Well, who taught that to me? Who taught that to them? Where Where does this information come from? And as soon as you start to pull on those threads, it's like this, you know, this tapestry starts unraveling. It can be very unnerving and very frightening. But if I've learned anything in, you know, the past decade, it's that questions will always lead to more questions, but they also lead to a sense of liberation and inspiration to be able to look at the world around you within a different lens. And I don't know, I think the way that you just wrapped up what you were saying was a really beautiful and hopeful perspective here. And I think tying that back to the question I asked you that, you know, just because things have been a certain way for so long, you know, if people think, well, we've just always consumed animals, or there's this hierarchy here, where humanity is just supposed to have dominion, we're supposed to eat animals, whatever it is that people are thinking, it's okay to question where that idea came from, and doesn't have to stay that way. Even if whatever they were saying was true. Does it have to stay that way? Because in order to progress and move forward in any sort of future, we can't always do things the way that they've been done for years and years and years.

Clare Mann: 53:32

Yeah, no, yeah. Well, one thing that you when you were saying, when someone says that to us, we've always done it like that. agree with them. Because it's true. It's good. What is not true is is not is up for grabs is what we think about that. So when someone says, Oh, we've always eaten animals go, you're absolutely right. So what do you think about that? I mean, you immediately make it personal in that sort of way. And what was the other thing you said about?

Katie Kurpanek: 53:59

There was a hierarchy? The hierarchy of dominion?

Clare Mann: 54:02

That's right. And again, the question so someone says, God gave us dominion over the animals? And I say, You're absolutely right. Do you know what Dominion means? And they go, Oh, that's what we do. I said, No, it doesn't actually look back over the old Hebrew and the other thing, it means guardianship, so what part of guardianship means that we can stop baby calves in the neck. If someone I do hit them hard with something like that? Not with sarcasm, but that's the reality. What's happening here, guys, you see what pardon, but you've used the words they've done. And just say, you're absolutely right. That gave us guidance on what's guardianship actually mean? In court action. If someone doesn't come up with the right answer. See, I say right answer insensitive definition is we want to pull rank on them and go Well, you don't know is actually well, actually, it doesn't mean that you know, I did some research and a nice phrase you can is when we don't want to pull rank on people because we shouldn't I mean, all of us. When we touch an elephant, you know what, what is it real leather font is yours or tail or, you know, when someone says, oh, I don't know about then go, Hey, look, do you know there was a time when I too thought that? Because we've always eaten animals, it's okay to do it. I then did some research and I found out that and then I changed my behavior. So it's saying there was a time when I thought that too because he probably was he's like, Well, that's what we brought up to do. You know, your mum puts, you know, lamb chops on the table, the glass of milk or milk, milk and cookies. Again, this whole association of comfort, you know, mom's trying to do the right thing. Mum didn't realize the worst thing she can do is use animal. Let's take the animal cruelty out of it. And there's enormous suffering. Animal base calcium, leeches, calcium from the bones. You know, it's eating meat is a major contributor, what the major eating animal products to diabetes, it makes us insulin resistant. Was mum being awful? Of course she wasn't, my mom was serving up the same food too. hmm. And then when you talk to people, yeah, but we've always done that. Surely, dah-dee-dah, you know, surely means-- Surely the government would tell us surely-- when you go, well, actually, we've all been lied to. Go, Do you know, there was a time when I too, thought it was okay. And we needed this. I then did some research and find out about you know, calcium does this or does. And then I on the basis that I changed what I was doing, because I was sick of being lied to actually. What do you think about that? You said, always have a call to action? What do you think about that? And whenever you get resistance is because people are starting to feel uncomfortable and go, Hey, look, I don't know how I'm coming across. But I'm not here to judge you or to anyone I feel. I can't believe we all been doing this stuff. You see you partner with people? Because not because it's a great conversational technique. It's because people are, you know, being the best versions of themselves often, you know, yeah, we got some psychopaths here, we got some, you know, the Tuesday coming through pain, you know, when we hurt people, but let's give people a different example of what is possible. And

Katie Kurpanek: 57:02

I love all of that. Thank you so much. This has been such a helpful conversation. If only for me, I know that there will be so many listeners tuning into this and they will, you know, walk away with all these different golden nuggets of what you've shared. But I have definitely gained so much from this. And I think bringing it into a landing here. I think that, you know, one of my questions, I won't actually ask it to you in full, because I feel like we've talked about a lot of this. But one of my questions was with all of this passion that we have for caring for the earth, and every being that lives within it, you know, how do we balance that with an our commitment, without developing a sort of like savior complex for, like, it's now our responsibility to take on to, you know, save the earth or save the world or save the animals or whatever it is. But I really think if I'm understanding a lot of what you're saying, and kind of recapping this conversation, it's more about trusting the fact that people at their heart, most people want to be good and are good, and they're capable of so much more than we may give them credit for. And so maybe instead of this idea of like, we need to save the Earth, or we need to save the animals, it's really just we need to tap into our own heart for one and do a lot of soul searching. That's that's a whole you know, other topic growing up and, and just growing as a person, but then within your own relationships and communication, tapping into the goodness that's within their heart. And in doing so, and in having these open defenses down kind of conversations, we can probably pull out a lot more common ground and a lot more realization that, you know, maybe we are all vegans at heart because we don't want to be using or exploiting animals in any way or any other beings. So, yeah, I think in my recap, would you agree with that kind of assessment?

Clare Mann: 59:05

Absolutely. And I'll just say as also, where are the vegans abusing animals? Where are they abusing the human animals? It's not just, it's a this is really important. I see so many vegans because of their pain, and because they can't believe people can't see and expand the window of compassion to non human animals, that they end up and I don't like this word hating humans, you know. And this, you know, we're all terrible people and understand where that's coming from, but we're not, you know, and so where can and using more violence to overcome violence is never going to work? I think there's I would agree with you. And I think there's, we have a choice in life. There's two things we either believe in cruelty or we don't. And we either believe in superiority we don't Simple as that. So everyone listening here is already vegan. There's no doubt about it. unless someone's going to they wouldn't have found their way to your podcast. If you're going to put up your hand and go Yeah, I love doing that it's great course, however, is put aside the assumptions, the stereotypes, the living the question. And actually, you know, how can I expand my window of compassion and concern for Mother Earth or other people for myself? Why own community to all living creatures? You know, and there's no bad news with veganism, there really isn't ethically, morally, spiritually, economically. And health wise, you know, go and look at the China study of T. Colin Campbell to know, I've just finished his training actually, which is wonderful. So we've got that sort of thing going on. But there's also one thing I would say to people is come into your truth, when you start worrying about what people think of you, which is not your business anyway. It's actually true, but most of us are afraid to do that. And I know we've got very little time, but I'll share it if I may. And about 18 months ago, I started a podcast series with the founder of world vegan day in Melbourne. And it was called the Stoke third rage dystopia. What else don't we know? And people get a look at that sort of stuff on the website is I was lambasted for during the terrible crisis of the last two years of asking questions. Now, that's my job as a psychologist also as a human being. So what if I really cared about what people thought when I was actually saying if we lose our freedom of thought, movement and speech, animals will have none. There was some vegans that I knew very well in prominent places who attacked me verbally on this. If I cared what I you know, really what they thought of me was none of my business because their reaction was that a proportion to what I was saying, obviously, press the button. Often we shrink away from that, and we got I better not say anything, I don't want to get hurt on social media. When you decide to allow people to say whatever they like the people closest nearest and dearest to you are the ones that are important. When you speak your truth, it is the most important thing because then you really are free to get encourage people to ask questions when we're constantly think your signs are likely or will I get my likes or whatever. That's not really not that it's going along with and that's where our freedom has actually been taken. And one little story I will tell you about my dear dad who died last year, he was 97 bless him as I've said. He? He told me I remember a story when I was eight years old. And he came out of he was a Royal Marine and the second world and very young Marine at 20. And when he came out, he actually worked for he drove a lorry for over 30 years, a very big articulated lorry, and we used to going back on summer holidays, and we dropped off somewhere and have a break in the country. You pick us up on the way back, but there was a day there went 200 men and they were all male actually went on strike for more pay. And my dad asked the question, he said, Why are you going on strike? And they said, because we can get more money. He said, but we are paid more than the industry average in this area. We have a really good employer that is really flexible. We have good sick pay, I have a fantastic pension coming my way, etc. He said, So what's the problem? And they said, you know, we know we have all that. But if we all come together, they'll give us more. And my dad said that's wrong. And my dad was the only one who stood up against 200 people. Now do I feel proud of my do I think my dad's crazy for they can't all be wrong. Get him to go? Or do I actually admire that man? Because later on down the line when there were changes in the management structure that we did negatively to that because management said well, okay, well, we you know, we're gonna have to be a little bit more heavy handed here because we won't get the work done else is, you know, which one do I feel was the preferable saying, my dad did the right thing. But did he care about what other people thought? Later on? People came in silently spoke to him and said, I wish I had the guts that you did. Okay, all of us stop worrying what people think, you know? If Yeah, of course, it can hurt us if we feel hurt by it. But if you speak your don't hold back your truth, for the sake of being popular. It's there a time in our history. We need each of us or the leaders, in our communities, in our workplaces, in our family, to actually get people to question and ask questions to get us out of the mess that we've created. Or inherited? Yes. I hope that's helpful.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:04:29

Thank you so helpful. It's been so so helpful. I just I seriously, I was like, I don't want to end this conversation because there's so many there are just so many wonderful moments and nuggets. Yes, in talking to you. Thank you so much. If you could, you know just take one to two minutes to be able to answer the final question that I asked everybody in the same you know, kind of words but then changing what it's about based on the topic but I always want to end giving my listeners one to three tangible steps that they could take about whatever we're talking about. So for you, and this could connect also with you know, your work and how people can follow up with you if you would like. But what are one, two or three actionable steps our listeners can take? Considering all their different, you know, backgrounds and the geographical areas, they may be listening the access to resources, if they want to sharpen their understanding and their communication skills within relationships, and particularly about veganism, where would you suggest that they turn to

Clare Mann: 1:05:33

Okay, so oh my gosh, 1-3. Gosh how do we answer this quickly and succinctly. Well, number one, I would give the best bit of advice that will come packaged it in the first one into two little bits, get rid of your television set. Now a lot of people don't watch television, I know certain age and whatever. And I got rid of mine over 20 years ago, you have so much more time and energy to do and you're not told what to listen to. But that means social media to literally we are constantly reacting to things we don't we need the mind space, the clarity to slow our brainwaves down to genuinely live in the question and challenge those assumptions. So turn it off for a whole day ice, turn it off on Friday night. And I used to go back to it on Sunday morning. And guess what the world doesn't fall apart. Most of us are reacting, I took emails and social media off my phone that may not be possible in the businesses or the lives people are doing. But come off that and you will actually if you feel anything you feel addicted to or agitated or online out of contact, that's an addiction. And actually, it's a form of control. So number one, look at how you can create more space and get out in nature and as a reaction, you know, so I would say definitely get out in nature. You know, do meet people in person have real conversations. You know, we like to be connected in a community online. It's also a beautiful tool, it can really help us or speaking on different parts of the world. And but get out in nature, ride your bike, go swimming, have a meal for people have real conversations. Okay, don't polarizing counsel. And the third one I do is there's lots of resources on my website to I think vegan voices was the one the free 30 days are individual video training there. But I will give a little plug for the companion to myths of choice, why people want change and what we can do about it answering some of the questions. Now if you go on to vegan psychologist.com forward slash myth, M Y T H S is a four part free program on there, which will just explain to you exactly how these influence and the fact that we don't ask enough questions, and we assume that we've always eaten meat. And we've always done this for years. And you can challenge it in your own life and then you come to understand other people. And whilst they perhaps are resistant and whatever you want to talk to them about.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:07:55

Oh, that's so exciting. I already have your book of Vystopia, vis topia with a V on my list. But now I need to get myths of choice on there, too. I'm so glad to get into that.

Clare Mann: 1:08:05

Yeah, well, we could do a whole podcast on that one really, because it's it's if you'd like to in the future, because that really is when we start to look at the shoulds arts and must in our own life, we then get to understand why people are so resistant and other things. And we we start to see what we've given away our freedom we don't even know it exists.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:08:27

Well, I would love to do that. And to follow up with you honestly, any reason that we can come up with for us to have another conversation in the future, I would be completely open to it. So Claire, thank you so much for being on this podcast. And for just sharing so much of your time and your insight with us. I'll have in the episode description, everything that we've kind of referred to as far as resources goes, and then ways to follow up with you and contact you if if people are interested. But thank you genuinely, this was so wonderful.

Clare Mann: 1:08:55

Yeah. And thank you, you give me inspiration. Because I'm older than you. That happens very quickly. But you you know you're doing the podcast on this. You're living in the question. You're curious, you're, you are a great inspiration. And you helped me to sleep at night, and I genuinely wouldn't say that unless I really meant it.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:09:14

Oh, thank you so much. That means the world to me.

Clare Mann: 1:09:17

Yeah. Lovely. Great. Thank you.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:09:23

I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and if you did, I would love it if you would share it with a friend. Spread the word over your social media, or simply leave a review wherever you subscribe to this podcast to help others find it as well. Thank you so much for being here. I'll catch you next time.